National Public Radio

The following is an excerpt from the transcript of an interview with Wilma Mankiller on National Public Radio in 2008. An activist and advocate for Native American rights, Mankiller (1945–2010) was the first female chief of the Cherokee Nation, serving from 1985 to 1995, and a recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Michel Martin (Host): I’m Michel Martin, and you’re listening to Tell Me More from NPR News… .

It’s Columbus Day, and, if you have the day off, you may be catching up on sleep, errands, or time with loved ones. Some people mark Columbus Day by going to parades that honor the man, who schoolchildren have long been taught discovered America.

But not everyone is celebrating. For people who trace their ancestry to those displaced and marginalized by the European journey to this continent, this is a day of somber reflection, even mourning. Joining us to talk about this, as well as whatever else is on her mind, is Wilma Mankiller.

She was the first woman to become chief of the Cherokee Nation. She’s a longtime activist and advocate for Native American rights and human rights. Wilma Mankiller, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining us.

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Ms. Wilma Mankiller (Chief, Cherokee Nation; Activist, Native American Rights): Thank you. I’m very happy to be here.

Martin: You know, I think so much of how Americans view Columbus Day is still based on what we learned in elementary school. I still remember that rhyme, “In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.” Do you remember how you were taught about this day?

Ms. Mankiller: You know, I was taught the same way other students are. That Columbus discovered America. And, all students enter maybe I think it’s about the third grade, when you start learning about American history.

And you know, we learned that there was this great, new world discovered by Columbus, with beautiful oceans, and bodies of water, and abundant forest, and foodstuffs. Well, you know, it certainly wasn’t a new world to the millions of people that had lived here for thousands of years, and there’s no discussion of that at all.

Martin: Do you remember that being sort of a crisis for you? Do you know how there’s a point at which the reality that you know, and what you have learned either through ancestors or through your own research kind of bumps up against the narrative that you were presented? Do you remember when that happened for you? And was that a crisis for you?

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Ms. Mankiller: I think it probably happened to me in 1969. We were living in San Francisco at that time. You know, I think it was the first time I heard the story that the Iroquois Confederacy, which is kind of an international group, was founded before Columbus arrived.

So, I began to think about what existed in the Americas before the arrival of Columbus, and others who claimed to have discovered our lands. So, I think probably that period of activism in the late 1960s was sort of the watershed moment for me, when I realized how unfortunate it was that most Americans who have been living in our, you know, towns and villages for hundreds of years, know so little about us.

Martin: Do you think that the basic American narrative that’s been taught about Columbus has evolved over the years? Because there has been, I think I would argue—I don’t know if you agree—but since that time, since the period of Native American activism, a lot of Americans became interested in, you know, first peoples, and what their lives and experiences have been. So do you think that the narrative’s changed over time?

Ms. Mankiller: I think it’s evolved somewhat, and I wish I could say that it had evolved more. I think that in virtually every sector of society, native people, whether they’re in tribal government or whether they’re in the private sector or an artist, they encounter people every day who have such enormously stupid, ridiculous, stereotypes about native people, and have so little accurate information about either the history of native people or their contemporary lives.

And so, all of us who are active in our communities and active in the country, and engage with a lot of people every time we get together, our native people, we talk about that, what kind of stupid questions were you asked recently? What can we do? Do we need to do more forums? Do we need to have more native journalists? Do we have to create more native films? What can we do to change this? And actually, all those things are being done. So, I’m guardedly optimistic that it will change in the future.

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Martin: Can I ask you what stupid questions you’ve been asked lately? Hopefully not right now.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Ms. Mankiller: Well, I can’t think of one I’ve been asked lately, but I remember one time a reporter with an English accent—very clipped English accent—called me at my home in rural Oklahoma and asked me if I rode a horse to work.

(Soundbite of laughter)

So—and I thought, you know what, I’m just going to take this guy for a ride.

Martin: Oh, dear.

Ms. Mankiller: So I told him, yes, I did. I rode a horse to work. I described the horse. And I said, my husband and I live in a tepee along the edge of a river, and he fished and hunted every day, and this guy was writing the stuff down.

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Martin: Oh, my. But on the other hand, how do you respond to those who say that the desire to explore other worlds is also human, and that Columbus can’t be blamed for what happened after?

Ms. Mankiller: Well, I think that obviously the desire to explore a new world is human. I’m not sure the desire to conquer other lands is necessarily the best human attribute, or to kill indigenous people and exploit their natural resources is a human attribute that many of us would find very admirable.

Martin: How do you think we should talk about Columbus Day?

Ms. Mankiller: I think in a balanced view. And I really think that Columbus Day can be used as a—just as you’re doing. It can be used as an opportunity to have a conversation, and to provide a little more education to people about the indigenous people that were here before Columbus.

And to give—make sure that Americans have some sort of historical and cultural context for understanding our contemporary issues. It’s really hard to understand contemporary Native American issues if you have no historical or cultural context. So I think that Columbus can be discussed in a balanced way, and it can provide an enormous opportunity for education, for conversations… .

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Martin: And so—and of course, this is a conversation that happens both within communities and outside of communities and among communities. You know, within the communities some leaders would say, well, you know, is focusing on the painful history and victimization really the best idea?

This is distracting. It’s harmful. Does this kind of conversation also go on, I think, among Native Americans at a time like this, when we’re thinking about a painful history?

Ms. Mankiller: It does go on. But I think that whether it’s family history, or political history, or a history of what I would characterize genocide, I think that you have to acknowledge it. I think you have to acknowledge it, and talk about it in order to move forward in a good way together as human beings.

But to hide it, or pretend it doesn’t exist, is not a good idea. I don’t think that necessarily means that we need to go around every day with anger in our hearts and about what happened to us historically. I think—but I think it’s important to acknowledge it, and think about it.

(2008)