Monica McGoldrick Conducts Couple Therapy

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MONICA MCGOLDRICK: So what do you see as the issues?

WOMAN: Well, the main issue is that he's spending a lot of time away from home. And he's using the gym as an excuse. But I don't know. It could be something else. And it's taking away from his time with our daughter. And that has me very concerned. Normally--

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: And that's a change, isn't it?

WOMAN: Yeah. Normally we spend a lot of time together as a family. And now he's gone sometimes in the morning before we get up. He doesn't come home until late. And then I have all the responsibility of taking Chelsea to her activities, helping her with her homework. And that was something that we shared before.

MAN: I just think that you can be really critical.

WOMAN: I'm critical? No, if I express myself, then I'm being critical. I can't have an opinion?

MAN: You have a lot of opinions. But like you just-- you know, you have this opinion that the reason why I'm out is because I'm cheating on you or I'm seeing another woman. Like that's just an opinion. But if that's how the conversation starts, then that's how it ends.

WOMAN: Well, all I said was I don't know what you're doing. So that's-- you could be doing that. I don't know. I--

MAN: See? She's doing this lawyerly thing where she says one thing-- it's totally different when we're at home and you sort of the way you explain it than how you're doing it now. You're just-- you're trying to be diplomatic.

And you're trying to be nice about it now. And you're trying to characterize it in a particular kind of way so that it doesn't really talk about how you really feel, right? But then I'm going to hear it when we leave here. So, you know--

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: What are you going to hear?

MAN: I'm going to hear that either I'm just like her dad or that I'm cheating on you with someone or that I'm pulling away and that watch what's going to happened or-- it's sort of like-- it's just like your mother. Your mother used to say the same thing. She still kind of says it, even though--

WOMAN: Don't compare me to her. That-- no. Yeah, this is what I can't deal with, being compared to my mother. And--

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: Why? Why is that--

WOMAN: I am nothing like her. I've worked very hard to not be like her.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: What? What is it--

WOMAN: So when he brings up these things, that's too much.

I want to be able to have a discussion with you. I want to be able to express my opinion. And I just need you to hear what I'm saying. Listen to me.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: You feel you do listen?

MAN: I could do a better job.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: Yeah.

MAN: I think it's hard sometimes. But I could do a better job. I could do a better job.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: What do you feel he doesn't listen to? What of your experiences do you feel he's not hearing that you want him to know about?

WOMAN: When I tried to talk to him about things going on in our family, things that are coming up with Chelsea, just whatever is happening, I want him to know and I want him to be a part of it. So I tell you about something that's happening on Tuesday at 4 o'clock, and then you don't show up.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: And then what do you do?

WOMAN: Then I'm doing it on my own.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: And is that--

WOMAN: And then yeah, he's going to hear about it later when he gets home. Yeah, I'm going to scream at him, because he was supposed to be there.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: And then that's when he thinks you just like--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

WOMAN: And then I'm just a screamer, because I got upset because you failed to meet the plans that we had. So yes, there are times when I can be critical when he does things like that.

I've screamed at him, yes, I have. I think it's a natural reaction when you're frustrated and upset.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: And the two of you haven't been able to sort conflicts out recently. Is that what you're saying?

MAN: It's getting harder. It's getting harder. It's definitely getting harder.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK (VOICEOVER): The following segments are taken from two sessions later. Things have not been going that well for the couple, but they're being a bit more direct about their conflicts.

WOMAN: Trying to not talk about people's family and him agreeing to be there didn't happen at all.

MAN: I wouldn't say it didn't happen at all. I think we started off trying to make things better. And then she had expected me to be at a certain place at a certain time. And I was late. And it led to--

WOMAN: Two hours late.

MAN: But I called.

WOMAN: You missed her performance. How is that being there?

MAN: I told you that I might not be able to make it, right? It was sprung on me when I told you that I already had plans, but that I would make up for it over the weekend when we would do something together over the weekend.

WOMAN: But this is our daughter. How can you miss that?

MAN: But we need to plan that out a bit more. You sprung it up as something that I needed to go to.

WOMAN: Yes.

MAN: And you didn't give me enough time to re-swizzle the plans that I had. But then what ends up happening-- I told you that I would try, right?

WOMAN: Yes.

MAN: Trying turned into an expectation. And then when I wasn't able to show up on time, you came at me the same way that you come at me, right? And it led to problems. And things have really not been the same since.

WOMAN: He's not trying.

MAN: Or rather, they've been the same.

WOMAN: You're not trying. You're not trying.

MAN: She's going to see it the way she's going to see it. So, you know. And this is the same old stuff, right? It's the same-- her mother acts the same way. And so it's-- I understand--

WOMAN: Oh, so you're trying to say I act like my mother?

MAN: I mean, I'm not trying to say. You do.

WOMAN: I don't.

MAN: You do. And that was--

WOMAN: I don't. And that's-- oh, we're not supposed to do that. But he's constantly saying that still, that I act like my mother. And I'm just trying to talk to him. If we make an agreement--

MAN: So Barbara, it's true.

WOMAN: If we make an agreement, then you should be there.

MAN: But see, this is the issue, that it's not-- from my perspective, it's not simply about my making an agreement that I would be there. I told you that I would try to. I told you that. It's not as though I miss everything. But I told you that I would try to.

You had sprung this up on me as an expectation, right? And then when I didn't do what you expected me to do, then all of a sudden, I'm the villain. I'm guilty. It's all my fault. And this is exactly the way your mother operates.

WOMAN: I expect you to be there.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: Now listen. Let me--

WOMAN: You're supposed to be there for your family.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

Hello?

MAN: It's ridiculous.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: Can I--

MAN: It's ridiculous.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: Can I-- can I interrupt you for a sec? I want to just offer you some rules of thumb that we often use. It's sort of like, don't bad mouth the other's family without permission. Can I share those suggestions for a minute maybe to help this conversation?

MAN: I don't know if it's going to help. I don't know if it's going to help, because it's simply going to be the same thing all over again.

WOMAN: It hasn't stopped.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: OK, so let me offer them for whatever--

MAN: Sure.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: --their worth may be. OK, so here's the deal. We suggest to people-- especially couples, but it's true for all relationships-- the following four thoughts. Don't attack, don't defend, don't placate, don't shut down. OK?

Now sometimes people respond, well what the heck are we supposed to do then, because there aren't any other ways of relating? But what we think is that as soon as you begin attacking your partner, the other person is likely to go on the defense or start attacking back or appease you and placate, or they just stop the conversation and shut down. And I want to help you stay connected and deal with the issues that you're working on, which you want John's participation to be--

WOMAN: Yes.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: --to increase. You want to feel a connection to him more than you have recently. And you want to be in a connection with her that feels positive, because you're sensing her as complaining. And it's contributing to your wanting to distance. So could that be a possibility to see if you could avoid attack, defend, placate, shut down?

MAN: I can try.

WOMAN: We can try.

MONICA MCGOLDRICK: OK, you don't sound very sure now, but OK. And listen, you got to see how you can make it work. And remember I told you also about the suggestion about bad mouthing the other's family, even though you had agreed with that idea a couple sessions ago. It's hard to change these things.

So it's easy to say, OK, we won't do that anymore. But you get upset and it's hard not to do that. But if you work at it, you can help yourselves find other ways to deal with these kinds of conflict.

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