Commentator: This is interesting. Newspapers are dead. That is a prevailing zeitgeist. It's a certitude that Martin Sorrell would like to push against [inaudible] revenue production for all the media in total chaos. Sir Martin's WPP in total chaos, but he suggests there's great value among the angst out on the fleet streets of the world.

Sir Martin Sorrell: Depends how you define newspaper [inaudible] because newspapers are digital newspapers, as well.

Commentator: Well, I mean--

Sir Martin Sorrell: And that's not a disaster.

Commentator: --you get the Wall Street Journal redo. I mean, people are out there trying to do things, aren't they.

Sir Martin Sorrell: The Times in London. Yeah, they're trying, and pulling the two together. So what we see is there are some good statistical evidence to show that engagement by consumers, when they read even newspapers of the old-fashioned variety which you read, right, like here, that you are more engaged, therefore more likely to take notice of advertising and the associated--

Commentator: Translate as the grizzled pro the word engagement versus what do you call the cat videos--

Sir Martin Sorrell: Interest.

Commentator: --on Buzzfeed or whatever?

Sir Martin Sorrell: Interest.

Commentator: Eyeballs?

Olivia: Eyeballs.

Sir Martin Sorrell: Interest. Engagement in the-- I mean, for example, we see it with live television, as well. What we see is that, on Twitter, actually people, when they're watching a live program, two people on the couch--

Commentator: Right.

Sir Martin Sorrell: --more likely to tweet one another and/or use social media than to talk to one another. So engagement and conversation-- let's call it conversation-- takes place between consumers when they're engaged with traditional.

Commentator: Olivia, let's get engaged here. For our radio audience, who is this?

Olivia: I don't know.

Commentator: That's on Dior. That's--

Olivia: It's Dior.

Commentator: --Jennifer?

Olivia: Lawrence.

Commentator: Lawrence. Jennifer Lawrence. I'm getting engaged with this ad here. I don't know if you handle Dior or not, but for our radio and TV audience--

Sir Martin Sorrell: [inaudible]

Commentator: --worldwide, Jennifer Lawrence sells. And she can't do that as well on digital, can she?

Sir Martin Sorrell: Well, she could on digital, too, to be fair. So then the answer to your implied question is both. We've seen a lot of data which shows consumers are spending more time online. About 45% of your time, my time is online. And we've seen engagement with traditional newspapers, the amount of time we spend falling.

But when you actually look at how consumers engage, how long they engage with that medium, as opposed to other media, it's something different. So you have to balance the two.

Commentator: What about the young crew?

Sir Martin Sorrell: Well, the young crew are changing. But again, when they do engage with digital media, digital newspapers, it's for long periods of time.

Commentator: Do you agree with that, Olivia?

Olivia: I'm not sure. I'm not sure, particularly because-- well, first of all I'd like to point out that, of print ads, the great majority are just pictures of good-looking women. So--

Sir Martin Sorrell: Or men.

Olivia: --primarily women. Particularly this day, you said the opposite thing a couple years ago. You built out WPP's digital business, and--

Sir Martin Sorrell: Oh, no, no, no. But it's always a question of balance. So digital for us now is 36%. By implication, the balance, the other 2/3, is in traditional media. So it's a question of balance. Now, digital is moving and will move to at least half our business. But it's about getting the balance right, because what happens in all these things, you always over-balance the other ways.

And what we've started to see-- and now there was an article in the Wall Street Journal last week about Procter perhaps shifting money back into television. So it's a question again always about balance between two, because the costs, as demand rises for one medium as opposed to the other, as supply reacts the other way, the supply, the demand, it creates a different pricing mechanism and different pricing balances.

Olivia: OK, speaking of pricing mechanisms, there's this huge paradigm shift going on in the industry right now, where publishers such as the Financial Times, the Economist are moving to a model where they bill by time spent on a page, rather than just the eyeball, rather than just the view.

Sir Martin Sorrell: Well, this is the engagement. This is the engagement thing.

Commentator: Who's best practices here? Very quickly.

Sir Martin Sorrell: In terms of newspapers?

Commentator: Who's the best practice-- who's hitting the ball out of the park? Mr. Murdoch--

Sir Martin Sorrell: I think--

Commentator: --or somebody I don't know?

Sir Martin Sorrell: --I think Murdoch on a global basis. In terms of trying to wrestle with the digital challenge, he's probably the best. But the biggest issue is measurement, Tom.

Olivia: But, so does--

Sir Martin Sorrell: You know, the measurement vehicles, that's why we've invested in Rentrak and comScore. You know, Nielsen in the US, for example, is highly challenged in terms of the views that it captures on television, and indeed in other media, too. That's the big issue, how do you measure. Because you know second screen and third screen is taking a large-- for example, in television-- is taking a large number of views. And that is not in the numbers. You know, we measure C plus 3, three days after showing. It should be seven days plus.

Olivia: Has DVR destroyed your business?

Sir Martin Sorrell: No, that's the reason why-- that's the reason why seven days is becoming more and more important. The pressure by meter owners is to get better measurement. That's the key issue.