WOMAN: Now in recent years, a spotlight has been placed on Silicon Valley's lack of diversity. In response, companies from Uber to Google and Apple have been making efforts to become more transparent on their diversity efforts, publishing diversity reports detailing the gender and ethnic breakdowns of their companies and pouring millions into initiatives with the aim of recruiting and retaining more women and minorities.
But much of what they've done has only shown incremental results. Now we sat down for an exclusive with two women who have really epitomized the fight against sexual harassment and gender discrimination in the workplace, Anita Hill, Brandeis University professor of social policy law and women's studies, as well as Kapor Capital partner Ellen Pao.
Now I started by asking if we have seen significant change in the more than 25 years since Anita Hill's historic moment.
ANITA HILL: Absolutely they have changed. And I think one indication of it is that 25 years ago, there was not nearly the public reaction that we have today. Today, specifically with the Bill O'Reilly situation, you have 50 corporations that have responded and resisted and pushed back on the idea of adding their names to this kind of behavior. You have a public that is enraged and is responding. Women are protesting. Women are telling their own stories. It's a very public and very different conversation.
And 25 years ago we had a president who actually supported Clarence Thomas, and the public went along with it. This time, with the president supporting Bill O'Reilly, the public is just not buying it.
WOMAN: So public sentiment has changed. You feel the same, and in some way, when you in 2012 came up against your previous employer and you took them to court. Do you feel things have changed for the positive?
ELLEN PAO: I think people are now believing people when they bring up their stories and their experiences. And I think that's been starting with Anita and everybody who's followed in sharing their own stories. I think people are now recognizing that there's a bigger problem, that there is discrimination and harassment in the workplace, and it happens to anyone. And it's no longer what did the victim do wrong. It's really, wow, this is a problem that needs to change. So it's a very different reception, I think, than 25 years ago when people were less educated, I think.
WOMAN: How is technology making a difference? The tech scene in particular still managing to show slightly better numbers when it comes to females in the workforce. But clearly still evidence of sexual discrimination when they are there. And the presence of ethnic minorities, black and Latinos in particular, seems pathetic in many companies.
ELLEN PAO: It's been a very systemic problem. So it started decades ago when the earliest companies started becoming successful, and they were started by mostly white men. And those white men then made the money to invest in other white men, and it became this whole—it's an epidemic of pattern matching. It's the white men who are successful, so that's who I'm going to invest in, and those are the only people who have the opportunity to succeed.
So it's something that has happened to women. It's happened to racial and ethnic underrepresented people of color. It's happened to people who are LGBTQ. It's been every group that is not part of that core, original founding set of followers of Silicon Valley have been excluded. So how do you change that whole culture to make sure that everyone is included, not just a few more women or a few more black employees. But it's making sure that you're getting the best employee for the job and giving them the opportunity to do their best work.
WOMAN: Are there any evidence of best practice that you're coming up against and saying yes, that's what should be deployed across other companies. Are you holding some startups or bigger technology companies up in the light to really show the way that things could be done?
ELLEN PAO: I think there are some companies that are really thinking about it in a very helpful way, where they're starting to experiment. I don't think there are, like, three things that you should really focus on that will solve all your problems. But I do think that you need to think about inclusivity as all people, not just certain groups. You need to think about it comprehensively across your company. So it's not just hiring more people and hoping they succeed, but it's making sure that they're onboarded, making sure that they have mentors and sponsors, making sure that they are promoted equally, they're given the same opportunities across the board.
And then the third piece is measuring. So these companies that are taking the time and making the effort to see what levels of diversity they have, what the sentiment is of the different groups inside those companies are, will have the data that will help them succeed. And the question is are you going to be able to take that data, share it across your teams, and focus on these problems?
ANITA HILL: And can I just say that for me, one of the clear pieces of information that we should draw from the O'Reilly situation is that it's not just a matter of bringing people i. It really is a matter of changing the culture and environment to make sure that when you put all of these things in place, that you actually follow through with an idea of increasing and maintaining increased diversity.
And that doesn't mean that you just take old rules and old responses to issues and reapply them with the new population. It means that we have to really get it. What does it mean, specifically, for people of color to be heard? What does it mean for women to be heard?
One of the things that I love about what's going on in the Academy now is that we're also teaching about intersectionality. We looked too long at these issues as binary issues. Oh, well, we have women on one hand, and then we have people of color on the other. But those are overlapping categories and the experiences are overlapping. And we're learning to kind of tease out what that means. What does it mean when we're talking about a woman who is a person of color, or even when we're talking about a man who is a person of color, versus all of the, perhaps, white people, white men who are in business.
So I don't want us to think just sort of, they're men on one hand, women only other, and that all women are the same, or that all men are the same. We have got to start looking at the nuances of how discrimination works in the workplace, and what do we need to do to respond to make sure that we attend to those nuances, specifically for different groups.
WOMAN: You mentioned having your voices heard, and I wanted to understand, perhaps, the positive, and indeed some of the negatives, of having been pioneers in this particular area. We are seeing more women able to come forward and make their voices heard. But do you think women are still, in some way, labeled as those who have spoken out? And is it always a positive, or is it still a negative?
ELLEN PAO: I'd say overall it's a negative. You're a troublemaker. You're a person who isn't conforming to the system. And in Silicon Valley, as much as we think of ourselves as innovators, there is a very strong pressure to conform. And you can see that in the response to different events.
I think for women who started talking about the problems in tech five years ago, it was very difficult for them. And there are so many women who came out, talked about their experiences, and were not believed. And for people to come out and take that big step and be challenged and be tormented on social media, that is a different type of abuse that we hadn't seen before.